I accept that I have a spiritual foundation that relies upon no amount of physical evidence. I can deal with that because physical evidence cannot challenge my basis for belief in Deity.
Religion and faith, it seems, do not require logic, reason or, at times, even common sense.
That perplexes me.
What do we do when physical evidence directly challenges the beliefs, doctrines and dogma that the Church, and we as it's members, embrace?
What do you do?
30 comments:
You know interestingly enough, a man got up and bore an actual testimony in church today, and I found it very interesting because he talked about exactly that. The short version is that a trigger in his life made him start questioning and doubting and searching and you know the story--- he came to the conclusion that while he tried to answer spiritual questions with worldly logic and reason, the answers were not coming. For him personally, he decided that spiritual questions could be answered through spiritual means, and while logically some things didn't make sense, he was sure he had received an answer when he went to his knees. He put it much better than I can regurgitate but I still found it interesting, sincere, and meaningful nonetheless. - Heidi
I can appreciate that because on many issues, that is where I am at. What I hope is that we will one day be able to bridge the gap between the two. In the mean time, do we just turn our backs on facts and evidence?
I stand my ground and let the walls come down around me. You got to stand for something are you will fall for anything (thats a great song and just had to throw that in there. lol). Be a Man do the right thing.lol. In a crazy mood and all these quotes keep popping in my head.
And bro that gap will get it's bridge when we meet are maker. He knows all and will make it easy for us to understand.
I understand what you are saying Sonny because that is my current strategy. It's the only strategy available. I just don't know why. Why is it God's plan to make everything seem so contradictory? Just to test our faith? This is the best method available? Really?
I guess the interesting thing to me is that while some questions may not be answered until we meet our maker.... I think more of them, the connections are there and we are just too narrowminded to see them. Humans in general want things to be black and white and have a hard time letting go of preconceived notions- but would it really be that hard to admit that we don't have a full understanding- even of the facts laid in front of us!? Or that each of us even view the same facts in different lights. I find that often if I expand my view even the slightest, so much more comes into focus. And sometimes by tweaking preconceived notions even a little can open my view largely as well. I just try to be open to new "facts" and even ideas, and fully admit that I do not have the scope of the larger picture, and to use one of Chris analogies- try to fit the puzzle pieces the best I can- and I'm ok with holding onto a few pieces that don't fit yet, but that doesn't mean I need to throw them away just because I don't have the connector piece yet- and the more pieces I seem to find- I realize that more and more are connected, and that gives me more hope to future connections. (Sorry that is sort of abstract and I'm not sure I'm portraying my point very well, but there that is). -Heidi
You ask:
"In the mean time, do we just turn our backs on facts and evidence?"
"Why is it God's plan to make everything seem so contradictory? Just to test our faith? This is the best method available? Really?"
I have to say, yes, I think this really is the best way.
Abraham 3:25
"And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.."
Faith and reason has been the most signifanct trial for me in this life. When I was going through my conversion to the gospel, I struggled deeply with some points of doctrine that seemed to make absolutely no sense (i.e. what?! no coffee?!?!?). And then I read Alma 32 (specifically verses 16 and 21) and had a realization. If we are to be proved in this life to do all that we are commanded, then surely some portion of those acts must require a degree of faith. If not, then wouldn't everyone believe and return back to Heavenly Father? Without the element of faith in the things that we cannot understand right now, then are we really being tested? It seems like it would be way too easy if it all made sense now.
I remember when I was a child how much it bothered me that I wasn't allowed to do some of the things I wanted to do. My parent's rules did not make sense. Now that I'm older and I look back, I can appreciate the rules they put on me because they kept me safe and helped me to develop into mostly responsible and productive citizen that I am today. I have to believe that our Heavenly Father operates in the same manner. Some of his "rules" just don't make sense. We are limited in our ability to make sense of them now because we haven't progressed enough to appreciate the perspective that he has. He has promised us, though, that one day we will be as he is. And that element requires faith on our part to beleive that it's true. And, man, sometimes that's really, really difficult...
Sorry - forgot to add another thought.
I don't think that just becuase knowledge we acquire directly contradicts our doctrines that we turn our backs on that knowledge. I think we just have to tuck it away until some point when we've progressed a little further and we can begin reconciling it to our beliefs. As Heidi mentioned, it's really about perspective. And that is one thing that continually shifts in our lives.
Heidi and Gina, I do agree with you both...for the most part. But let me play devil's advocate, only because it is so much fun. And you chose to participate in this mental exercise.
If nothing will be bridged and the majority of things will not make sense until we can hold our white rock and attain a knowledge of everything we desire, then it seems to me the only reason to pursue secular knowledge is for the benefit of employment in mortality.
Why muddy up my brain with "facts and evidence" that will only destroy my faith?
Why even use our brains when our heart is all that is needed to get into heaven?
And if I've been saving those puzzle pieces for a decade plus, am I left to assume that (A) I am not smart enough to bridge the gaps, or (B) I am not spiritual enough to bridge the gaps?
White rock reference: D&C 130:10-11
Therein lies the trick of balance in all things...the test is while yes, we should definitely always seek knowledge, and to expand our own horizons of truth and understanding- the trick of balance lies in how we use and store that understanding and balance it with the required faith- being careful not to let either overrule the other. - Heidi
Come on Heidi, let's be honest. In our church, do you really feel there is equal emphasis placed on faith and reason?
I would be happy if it was a 51-49% division of focus.
Heck, I'd take 75/25...
Dang it Heidi stop using my account.
I will simply answer this by saying what I would do (since you asked).
I would choose to live a life where my decisions are based on reason founded on evidence and observation. Too many times faith in the wrong thing has allowed people to do things that absolutely defy reason (fly planes into buildings, strap bombs to themselves, destroy their planet with never mind, cause Christ is returning anyways).
I wish more people would think instead of believe. God did not imbue us with, as Saint Augustine says is the greatest gift of all, REASON to just blindly stumble over our belief.
If the two are at odds, I will always choose the one backed by evidence, sound observation, retestability, and general consensus.
One last thought ... Gina is looking at this question from only her beliefs. I wonder if she would change her tune if it was a completely different belief system. What if someone's belief system was founded on "The Church of Euthanasia" where they believe they are saving the planet by killing themselves?
Sounds pretty unreasonable to me. I think we would all push for a little more reason in this case.
General consensus is the widely accepted belief that the Prophet is NEVER wrong, so when he speaks, we shouldn't have to think, just follow.
Thomas Monson: "My faith did not come to me through science, and I will not permit so-called science to destroy it."
Just for you Chris...
I meant general consensus in the scientific method sense.
I know but i was the only opportunity to throw that quote in there and make my following point.
From the highest level, it shows a predominance (and preference) towards faith and a shunning of science, not a balance between the two, or even an attempt at reconcile the differences between them.
Lets get a couple of things clear while we are discussing this. Faith is the hope in things unseen. Faith tackles questions like life after death, God, and the immortality of the soul. You don't need to have faith when you turn the light switch on, for your lights to turn on. You do have to have faith God is listening to your prayer.
Science is the study of our natural world, the laws that govern it and what we can observe. Sometimes what we observe is in contradiction with what we believe or have traditionally believed. Back to your original question. Which side would you choose? Remember that the answer you give yourself is the same one you allow the rest of the world to feel OK with.
I have a hard time with beliefs that cover their women head to toe and do not allow their women to speak, because they are not my beliefs. In that case they are unreasonable and we should favor reason. In my own beliefs that is not the case... we play favorites all the time and contradict ourselves.
Back to science ...
If you gain knowledge of the natural order of things through real scientific discovery and that somehow conflicts with your beliefs, there is a much greater chance that your belief may need to be reconciled. I say this to myself as well as the world. Lets face it you beliefs are a speck in the gigantic sea of human superstition and beliefs out there.
Yes, yes, I know science has been wrong, but the process continually shakes out the mistakes. It throws out the anomalies. Religion and faith have a much more rigid stance. Good scientist will never admit 100 percent they know, but eventually a scientific consensus is made and we grow on top of what we have developed.
Just on my soapbox now. Cheers.
We are posting at the same time. There is a time lapse. Wish I had read your last comment first. Sorry bro.
One last thing, then I have to go do family stuff...but I will be back.
Faith is great to have. It is when it is in direct contradiction with reason that it gets scary for me. Having faith does not give me a valid reason to trump rational thinking.
We are rational beings. We carry with us tons of evolutionary baggage in the forms of superstition, bigotry and hate. What we also evolved to have is our ability to reason. I just hope it is reason that eventually trumps the other stuff.
I would like to end with this quote, "I think, therefore I think" -Ayn Rand
The secret behind my original question is that faith and reason rarely come into DIRECT contradiction because the Church leadership, as an organization, rarely makes definitive statements or positions on matters of science, they merely imply them and create dogmas.
TJ -
Looks like you've begun a fun dialogue! :-)
I enjoy playing devil's advocate, too, so no worries there. And Christopher, you make a good point about my perspective. I never thought about this question from any other angle than that as a member of this Church. So you've given me something to chew on there...
As far as your challenge, TJ, I personally enjoy learning and want to keep learning as much as I can. I accept that a risk of gaining knowledge is that my beliefs will be challenged. Am I prepared for that? Mostly. Do I think it's a waste of time becuase I may ultimately rely on faith? No. One of the great blessings of being a human is the ability to collect vast knowledge of all things. I think it's sort of a prerequisite to achieving godhood. So I guess to answer your question about what do I do when I am faced with a faith vs. reason situation...I keep asking more questions...which leads to more questions...with the hope that one day, I'll finally get an answer that makes sense. I think I'm in over my head here in attempting to convey my thoughts. I never was a great writer! But I like this question a lot and it will keep me thinking... :-) And I really enjoy reading the other comments, too!
To my brothers T.J. & Chris. Your faith is as strong as you want it to be. Chris your right faith is unseen. And to some that is scary because you can't see it so your mind starts to doubt. But me myself I tend to follow the strongest muscule in my body my HEART it never rest and never ask why it just drives you thourgh. And yes bro the heart is always stronger then the brain because your brain will quit or tell you to quit first and it is your heart that keeps you in for the long haul. Sorry if this sounds stupid to you guys but this is my stance. I respect both of you guys I've always looked up to you both so much in life for being so smart. Just because you don't believe everything said at church look at it as a whole and where would you be with out it and you tell me is it with it.
Sonny, your position doesn't sound stupid at all. I posted this as a mental exercise to get people thinking and talking. I totally respect where you stand. I also believe in our core fundamental doctrine. I am there every week because I do.
I just want others, who feel like me, to realize that having questions that seem unanswerable is not the end of the road. Endure to the end and all that stuff. There are things I know, there are things I believe and there are things I hope for.
I have a hope in Christ that faith will bridge with reason...one day.
To Gina -> great response. Please do not feel inadequate for writing in this forum. This is what it is all about, discussing, and learning. I really liked your last point where you mention hope (faith) in having it all makes sense eventually. That is my hope too.
I think those in pursuit of knowledge (honestly) will eventually obtain small portions of it.
To Sonny -> As much as we try to associate emotions with our heart muscle, the heart is totally incapable of feeling. It is a pump and those that have been put on heart machines or received artificial hearts still think and feel the same.
All your emotional responses come from your brain. Your brain's flight or fight and emotional centers are very primal. They are usually first response. Which is why conditioning for soldiers and professional fighters is so important, so your reason can trump the fear and emotion (AND should I might add). Your brain and your ability to reason is your greatest gift.
Every response you have to the things of this world come from your brain. You cry for the loss of a loved one, you get angry and fight someone that wants to do you harm...all emotional responses from the brain.
It is a combination of the two, emotion and reason that play together in perfect harmony. Not sure if this is what Heidi insinuated by having balance.
When there is a conflict with that balance reason should trump emotion by keeping it in check with reality.
You know better than anyone, that great fighters (like in the UFC or boxing) are those that can think in a fight and not solely act on feeling. Why would our spiritual fight through life be any different?
To everyone -> I know I sound like I am coming off cold and too rational, but like I said there is a place for faith, belief, and emotion. That is part of the human experience. Our loves and passions drive us to pursue our goals and dreams.
It is my emotional response that makes me put a dollar in the bucket of ever Santa Claus ringing a bell outside of Walmart.
All I am saying is our beliefs, faith, and emotions need to be kept in check with reason when the two are at odds.
Some quotes for thought from the
Golden Sayings of Epictetus:
Knowest thou what a speck thou art in comparison with the Universe?---That is, with respect to the body; since with respect to Reason, thou art not inferior to the Gods, nor less than they. For the greatness of Reason is not measured by length or height, but by the resolves of the mind. Place then thy happiness in that wherein thou art equal to the Gods.
The life of virtue is the life in accordance with nature. Since for the Stoic nature is rational and perfect, the ethical life is a life lived in accordance with the rational order of things. "Do not seek to have events happen as you want them to, but instead want them to happen as they do happen, and your life will go well" ( Handbook , ch. 8).
Well bro you took they way wrong so I will put it this way then. People have been know to live brain dead nobody lives with the heart not working because if the blood stops you don't get what you need to survive. And yes a brain is a great thing a wonderful thing but it is weak also. A good fighter has to be a good thinker but when your piss, or hurting and you get that adrenaline or second wind that is heart. So tear me up with your logic you are the one that took anatomy class and know all about the body but I'm speaking from the heart not the brain. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Love ya bro.
HAHA ... thanks bro for the slap. Gonna go get my pipe out now and start smoking. :) Cheers my man.
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