Wednesday, February 11, 2009

Why Mormons Catch Hell For Prop 8...

I am always flabbergasted when I talk with my fellow Mormons who cannot seem to comprehend why the Mormons are the posterchild of the Yes On Prop 8 campaign. They give a multiplicity of reasons but let's just talk dollars and

Point 1. California Mormons amount to 3% of the state electorate. And 3% is a generous rounding up...

Point 2. The 'Yes on 8' campaign raised $39,900,000.

Point 3. Mormons have been identified as donating nearly $20,000,000.

Point 4. Utah Mormons contributed just under 7% of the total $40 million to a California constitutional amendment campaign.

When 3% of the qualified voters donate 50% of the funds to the costliest state proposition campaign in the history of the United States, are we really surprised when the group that does so becomes the face of the movement?

Learn something from those you are discriminating against...just own it.

Be out and proud!


Nicole Shelby said...

So, if it's not the rainbow of gay-pride. What's the anti-rainbow? the black & white of missionary attire?

Matthew Shelby said...

Religion and government are like the equivalent to driving and alcohol........when their not done together you have order (for the most part). When their mixed it's total anarchy. I do not condone the homosexual lifestyle at all but if it doesn't affect me in anyway.........who freaking cares! Good thing I don't pay tithing, wouldn't want it to be spent on hatred and bigotry.

Jared said...

Great post TJ. Totally Agree.

slipperyjim said...
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T.J. Shelby said...

Slipperyjim, I never said they could only donate proportionate to their numbers. I just found it ironic that this Mormon mental illness of always having to be the martyr. "Oh woe is us as Mormons...We stick up for our beliefs and now everyone picks on hoo hoo."

If you're going to donate, just own it and don't be little crybabies about the consequences of public perception.

I disagree with you, as did 48% of Calfornia's supporters of Constitutional rights, and as will the courts, that gay marriage is an issue for the 50% +1 popular vote.

Aristotle said, “Democracy arose from men's thinking that if they are equal in any respect, they are equal absolutely.” Treating one set of citizens different from another based upon physiology is unconstitutional.

I am sure this is also something we'll disagree on. You'll say it's a choice 100% of the time, while I say the majority are born with same-sex tendencies.

That's the beauty of America. We are all allowed to have and share our opinions, no matter how wrong they are. See...equal rights.

slipperyjim said...
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T.J. Shelby said...

No problem and yeah, I do get ultra-passionate about this. As a socially liberal Demo-Libertarian, Utah may be a politically interesting (frustrating) place to live.

I agree that fringe groups within the movement created unnecessary backlash (destructive protests, stalking donors, etc) but I don't think that intolerance of prejudice and discrimination is the same as the acts of prejudice and discrimination.

I leave the abortion issue for another blog battle, ha ha. Back to gay marriage, how can we have one set of laws for one set of citizens but ascribe another for those the majority deem different because of sexual orientation? Separate but equal is done with...

slipperyjim said...
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T.J. Shelby said...

Dude we have vastly different views of what basic human rights are protected by the Constitution. How you can compare socialism and communism to having different sets of rules for citizens based upon sexual orientation is difficult to understand. I also agree that affirmative action was a joke but still unrelated to the topic at hand.

Marriage is a religious institution, not a civil one. My solution is that the government do away with marriages altogether. Any two consenting citizens wishing to enter into a legal partnership would enter a civil union. If citizens want a religious marriage ceremony after that, go to the churches.

Aside from the discriminatory aspects of the proposition, my 2nd biggest beef is that 40+million dollars was wasted to simply protect a dictionary definition of a word. Even Utah's governor is now espousing the civil union bandwagon. Satan's counterfeit for marriage. So everything is the same but they can't call it marriage.

What the hell is everyone fighting for then?

And as far as letting God sort it out not the government, we don't live in a theocracy, regardless of how much the Republican party wants it.

I love Jon Stewart's take on popular vote:: "You have to remember one thing about the will of the people: it wasn't that long ago that we were swept away by the Macarena."

slipperyjim said...
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T.J. Shelby said...

Thanks for the brain stimulation. I hope it doesn't seem like I'm making it personal. You're at least in the 5% of people who are backing this with some sort of logic (even if I disagree with it) instead of just because their pastor or church memo told them to.

That being said, I disagree with just about everything you said. We have fundamental differences of opinion about root issues. We can't (and shouldn't) talk pros and cons because we don't agree on whether or not people are born gay, which makes the issue of whether or not sexual orientation is a protected civil right, a needless point to debate.

I disagree with your assertion that the religious right is not infiltrating the Republican party with aspirations of theocratic government. I disagree that the Prop 8 was about whether or not citizens condone homosexuality. That is what the Republican theocracy made it about and, ultimately, why they were successful.

But we do not live in a country of just Mormons, or even just Christians...what we do in our religions should not cross over to discriminatorily impact a multi-religious society. What happens then, when we become the minority?

If it was simply about accepting or condoning homosexuality and if Christians want homosexuality to end, we should be better missionaries...

You are right that the Black (and Latino) votes carried the Yes campaign, which just boggles my mind to be frank. Talk about groups which should sympathize...

Ha ha. Come on, the quote was funny. I was either going with Stewart or Colbert, but Colbert is too condescending in his smug mockery, so I went with Stewart. i hear your point about not overturning the majority but what happens when the majority is wrong? That's why we aren't a pure Democracy but a democratic republic.

I, for one, am happy we have a system to prevent and to ensure the mob mentality of a public majority from dictating unconstitutional laws and edicts. The minority parties will always have that safety net, as they should.

Here, I've give you a presidential quote. It stands the test of time. “That the desires of the majority of the people are often for injustice and inhumanity against the minority, is demonstrated by every page of the history of the whole world” - John Adams

Good bantering with you. We should have picked a lighter subject to resume correspondence with...maybe next we can do abortion or evolution? Ha ha ha.

slipperyjim said...
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Christopher Maloy said...

I have to comment on slipperyjim. First of all if you are an educator in the school system, it is far from liberal. Just as you fear that your kids are getting liberal views from your peers, I sure as hell am worried that you are teaching my kids your views from the far right.

You say early on in this discussion that you feel equality is a noble cause, then you mock it. We live in a state where gay people can be denied renting an apartment or a job simply because of their sexual orientation. We do have very discriminatory laws here. Equality is not a lost cause. We have fought so that people could marry any race of person they want. We have fought for women to be considered intellectually equal to men (even though my experience proves them to much smarter). Those are not lost causes.

I agree that some same sex attraction is sometimes nurture, but some is nature to. The fact that you can't accept that some people are born with it worries me that you have a Master degree. Any doctor will tell you that some people are born with both women and man parts, and that some people are more sexual active than others (based on hormone levels); it is not much of a stretch of our reasoning power to say that some are born gay.

You mock our legal system (as imperfect as it is) without any better alternative. Unless you consider the will of the people the alternative (GO MOB RULE).

You mock Obama and I can only wonder if McCain and Bush were your best to offer. That is besides the point.

You generalize like bloody hell calling everything liberalism that is different from your protect marriage cause.

Wake up and join the world, things are not so black and white.

Just for the record, the gays will always be the minority and it is not a popular choice for every single gay person. Some deal with great stress and discrimination to the point of suicidal depression. Doesn't sound like a fun choice to me. Some are born that way.

Equality is a noble ideal that every religious person should agree with. I am pretty sure Christ taught that the meek would inherit the Earth. I am definitely not calling liberals meek, but I am not calling absolutist (like yourself meek either). Christ's friends were whores, sinners, and the down trodden. Remember his message of distribute the wealth? Give all that you have to the poor...If someone takes your coat then give him your cloak also. Then you mock those ideals and those that try to follow them.

I will not be as nice as TJ has been to you. What you say is hypocrisy and absolute bullshit. Stop listening to the talking heads and lead by example to those that need good leaders now-and-days. You wanna start changing the future? Start by changing yourself.

No this is not a pure Democracy and thank God. Our founding fathers were just as afraid of mob rule as they were of the government itself.

I can't even comment on your list of worries. I will say that I come from a long line of military tradition (Marine Corps. mostly) and if you think gay people have it easy in the service you are crazy. You are worried about morale in the military? HAHAHAH How about stop sending them overseas. Let them come home to their families. We are so inefficient. So many of my friends are bored to death in Iraq and Afgan. What does that do to morale?

I will not be back to this blog. I just can't stand to listen and talk to those that have no intention on changing their minds.

I will make one more plug. As a nation we have forgotten to listen to each other. We will always have difference because of our diverse pot of people, but we don't listen to each other anymore. We vote down party lines, we do things our own way, and we get information from sources that don't challenge our thinking or beliefs because we don't want to change or listen. That is the saddest story in my opinion and slipperyjim has proven that to me again.

slipperyjim said...
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slipperyjim said...


You sound like a cute freshman who has just completed philosophy 101 with a C- grade. Congrats, and good luck in philosophy 102.

T.J. Shelby said...

SlipperyJim, you didn't have to delete all your posts (except one?). I don't mind when people who've never met have blog battles. It's entertainment for me...