Saturday, August 8, 2009

Science and Faith


Christopher Maloy said...

OK, first I have to say I love this, because it is true.

Science = discovery of truth based in reality through evidence and proof.

Philosophy = pursuit of truth and understanding of abstract.

Religion = possession of truth (or so it leads you to believe).

I can always tell in a conversation if someone is talking religion, science, or philosophy. Once someone starts telling me they know something (especially something not based in reality or provable) I know immediately we are talking religion.

This chart shows the sadly true and dramatic difference between science and faith. It is missing a few steps (when it comes to peer review and falsifiability) but nevermind that.

My biggest pet peeve is when people try to equate the discovery of religious truth as the same thing as scientific truth. The process is not the same.

Christopher Maloy said...

Wait by declaring this blog is true put me in the religious camp ... damn... I rephrase that, it seems to be true and is the best working model we have of what currently happens between the two mindsets.

HAHAH!!! I crack myself up.

T.J. Shelby said...


RobShelby said...

And both of you have forgotten that God can do anything.... including.. enlighten minds to the truth.. regardless of what man states is true. Our spirits are not restricted by the same restrictions this world has. I know.. I know.. you want scientific proof that something is true. Somewhere in the scriptures it states that we are not to look for signs... isn't this proof you are seeking.. looking for those signs?
I love you both!!!!! 8-D

Christopher Maloy said...

Love you to Robyn but I just disagree.

I am not looking for signs, I am looking to understand things as they really are. If that is a sign and a sin, then I accept my hell bound soul as it is not as I imagine it to be.

God can do anything? Which god? How do I show that is true? I can make a claim that after this life we will all be forced back into the great energy of the universe only to wait and reincarnate as something else. That claim doesn't make it true. It holds as much water as any other claim made about god.

Christopher Maloy said...

I guess what I am asking, is for a set of criteria to determine when claims are true or false. What made this post funny was that it showed the weakness in asserting religious claims.

T.J. Shelby said...

If there is evidence, faith is not needed.

I don't need scientific proof that something is true. I believe in a spiritual aspect to the universe. One cannot prove the existence of a hereafter, however, because a hereafter cannot be disproved does NOT prove it's existence.

That is my problem with religion. It tries to cross boundaries in to the secular world and tries to talk in absolutes. They will bash evolution as DEFINITELY not how God brought about the world but cannot provide alternatives.

They can't counter the scientific findings of evolution based upon the analyzation of evidence God left behind with the literal Bible version "Whoop, There it is" theory of a God making Adam from Playdough and Eve from a Missouri...with a talking snake...who had a son who killed another and started the race of all dark-skinned peoples...and then was seen walking the earth as a Sasquatch in 1835...

We really expect secular scientists to take that seriously?

Christopher Maloy said...

My problem withmaking or believing any assertiom without evidence is that it doesn't make someome stating the exact opposite and being as equally correct under the same criteria.

That what can be claimed without evidence can be dissmissed without evidence -chris hitchens

Christopher Maloy said...

Sorry for all the spelling errors and typos ...writting all this from my phone

sonnymaloy said...

I remember two guys at the age of about 17-19 that was going around speaking truth about god and the evidence that they had about and for you two to tell me you where lost and thats what you needed at that time in your lives, with some of the conversations and things you guys done and saw I saw B.S. The two of you are not that stupid and the things you went through growing up you where not blind to life. You two will never figure out Gods power or truth mostly when you are always tring to prove it wrong. Thats my opinion and not everything comes to use through proven facts. Peace out brothers.

Christopher Maloy said...

Sorry bro, I disagree. I know you keep invoking past experience on me, but I just disagree with your assessment of me. I am not trying to disprove anything. I figure if something is true it can stand on its own without anything I or anyone has to say about it.

Not going to argue on TJ's blog about it, but if you want to have a heart to heart tomorrow after dinner I am always willing.

T.J. Shelby said...

Sonny, I was lost and that was what I needed. It doesn't mean that what I experienced wasn't genuine and true. Those are the last straws I am hanging on to that allow me to even believe in a God. I have had experiences that I cannot explain except to say that there is a God.

That being said, 10 years post mission, I still have yet to receive the resolution to questions, concerns and doubts that I originally began with.

It's not that I'm trying to prove Mormonism wrong. It is simply that I refuse to let people explain away history and common sense.

You said, "...not everything comes to use through proven facts" and while I do agree with you, I also believe that ignoring proven facts also makes us regress as individuals and as a society.

Thanks for giving your comments, as always!

RobShelby said...

I guess I have to ask you how you 'thought', 'believed', or 'knew' that God existed and the church was true when you were a young man? You state that you were just lost and looking for something. I'm with Sonny...
I knew you then too. Anyway.. just know that I'm not throwing daggers, I love you and I care. I want you to find the truth!
Your 'other' Mom! :-D

RobShelby said...

I guess I'm not concerned with what the 'secular' scientists think.
I know I can find my truths from God. I know God can do anything with anything or anyone, and that He will give us guidance and direction in all things. I also know that we can get things in our head and decide for ourselves that we know better than God and that we can rely on ourselves for answers that are truly beyond our reach.
You can rip this up if you choose to but please remember that I feel all I can offer you is my testimony which is very precious to me. I've had my crises of faith throughout my life, but when all was said and done I could not deny what I had been told over and over and over again. I heard my Heavenly Father's voice. I have seen and heard my Savior as well. Others can laugh at this, but I do know it is true! I love you and I want you to know it again too! You have been such a wonderful blessing in my life and I want you to continue on in faith.. that same faith that has seen you and I through a number of things in our life together. I love you son!

T.J. Shelby said...

Thanks Mom. I appreciate your love and concern. I will just agree to disagree. It wasn't my intent to "rip" anything you say so I apologize if it came out that way. As you well know, I have a very sarcastic attitude.

sonnymaloy said...

Forget church buildings bro and forget people don't stop believing in God. You are alot like me you love nature and I've seen alot of beautiful things in life nature the birth of my little girl and so much more and I know that all of that did not come from a big bang. So dig deep and even if it's not the church hold on to that love and beauty that God has let you see and enjoy. I love you guys and hope this makes some kind of sense. And if I'm wrong at least I've lived and loved greater then I ever have. I use to be a bitter and angry person with no soul but I think I found something better in life.

RobShelby said...

I did not mean you would... just that you could rip it up if you chose to. The world's views are so different than looking at everything through the spirit. There have been many times in my life that I have been angry at Father for what I perceived as "letting me down" but.. as time goes by ... and it always does... I see the wisdom and the whys in the events that have shaped my life. As I said before... I have faith, in Father and in you. You will find your answers. Just never, ever, give up looking for them. And... remember... those events in your life that reason cannot explain away. Have faith that your answers will come. I know they will ... just stay humble... and they will come. I love you forever!!

kshelby76 said...

Ok let me put my two sense in on this topic, even though you know I am not half as knowledgeable on this subject as you all! Do I believe in a higher being? Yes! Do I pray and wait for awnsers? NO! Do I try and live my life to the best of my ability? I believe so! Thats all I ask of you all, now that we are all parents we need to make the right decisions in our life to pave the right road for our children to follow! I also believe we can make these choices on our own and we don't need somebody to tell us what and what not to do! I love you all and I just want you all to do what ever makes you and your family happy forever!

T.J. Shelby said...

Couldn't agree more Kelly!

Matt Shelby said...

HEHE.....I see I'm a little late but let me add my two cents. Mom, I'll try not to rip you too much!! :)
Love the diagrams by the way!

Ok....first off, love you all.

Second, I understand where you both are coming from but I think I have to agree with Sonny on this one. It seems that your questions all started off innocently enough but as of late it seems like you guys are trying to prove the church wrong or religion in general. Maybe it's because you both feel kinda guilty for your decline in faith. Been there, done that. All the pressure given to young Mormon males to go on missions, get married in the church and blah, blah, blah. It was never "if you decide", it was always "when you go".
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that "at that time" it was what you needed. What 17-20 year old doesn't though?!! At those ages you do need some type of guidance and I applaud you both for your decisions in life.
I've had and still do have all the same questions you guys do. Maybe on a more simpler level but in general they are all the same. But one thing I've never done was quit believing in God. I've never seen God. I've never seen Christ. I've never heard voices. What do they sound like Mom? I've never seen dead people's spirits. I've never had a paranormal experience. But I have had instances where for unknown reasons I know my life was spared. If there wasn't a God, I know I wouldn't be here right now. I've had dreams come true days, weeks and years after having them. With that said though, I have lost faith in decisions of coverup and policies of church leadership. The sheer blatency of them is overwhelming. The problem I have and always have had, is the fact that the church leadership (throughout the years) has had the opportunities to correct these decisions and most of the time I'll admit, they have. But they have not done so in a responsible manner. Rather than admit wrong doing, they cite revelation. Because no one can debate revelation with the leader of the church! Hiding behind faith. I hate it.
Mom, I agree. God can do anything. Can you tell him to enlighten me because every time I ask for enlightenment I end up buying a 12 pack! Hey, it's Bud (Light), so I guess that's enLIGHTening right?!! haha Sorry, couldn't resist!! :) I do agree with you though. On that point. But why should we not look for signs though? I remember being told numerous times to look for rainbows because "Mormon gossip (doctrine)" stated that the year you don't see a rainbow Christ will be coming back. Is that not a sign? And aren't you taught to always "seek knowledge"? Wouldn't further knowledge seeking be considered "sign seeking"?
Anyways, it comes down to this. Faith. Hahahahaha......I can't believe I even wrote that! But I think it's true. If you want to be a part of any religion, you have to have faith that A.) there is a God, and B.) that the leadership isn't lying to you and is truely inspired of God.
I personally have always believed A.) but have always had a problem with B.)

Either way, I'm not one to judge. Live your lives and live them well. Live without regret. Love and raise your kids to be good upstanding citizens. Love your wives. We all falter, make mistakes. Mess up too badly and I'll kick your asses though!! haha

I'm out!